Zel's Fleet Blog...Rover, Renault, Peugeot, Trabant, Invacar & Sinclair C5

Post pictures and stories about your cars both present and past. Also post up "blogs" on your restoration projects - the more pictures the better! Note: blog-type threads often get few replies, but are often read by many members, and provide interest and motivation to other enthusiasts so don't be disappointed if you don't get many replies.
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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog...Citroen, Mercedes, Sinclair & AC Model 70

#1391 Post by Zelandeth » Mon Nov 06, 2023 7:39 pm

Not likely to be a huge amount going on over the next few days, I've managed to come down with an absolute stinker of a cold which has utterly knocked me sideways. I was pretty surprised when the COVID tests I've done came back negative as that's how bad I've been feeling. Today though I forced myself outside for half an hour to do *something* mainly as a distraction if nothing else.

The mechanical fuel pump has now been removed and the blanking plate installed.

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I found a convenient hole in the inner wing to mount a bolt to (looks like it was originally intended as a wiring pass through - guessing for the marker light which would have been on the wing on US spec cars) which has basically decided where the new fuel pump will be living as it saves me having to drill any new holes.

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When I've got more time I may revisit this, either shuffling it over to towards the side a little more and re-drilling things so I can use both mounting lugs, though as it is it's absolutely not going anywhere.

The hoses obviously need to be rerouted, particularly the discharge side line to the carbs as it's now too short. That one is an old line that came with the car anyway so would be getting replaced as a matter of course - I just don't currently have any the right size in stock.

Testing the new pump next to the Hardi one showed that it shifts nearly double the amount of fuel, so probably is better suited to an engine which I'm sure can be "a little thirsty" when being driven in a spirited manner.

I had noticed even when running the previous electric pump (I've not wired this one up yet) that when the car had been idling for any period of time that I was still getting quite severe fuel vapourisation issues. I think I've finally tracked down probably the main reason for that - and that's that the fuel return line is plugged completely solid. That's one of the main ways that this issue is handled on this car, by simply keeping enough fuel flowing through the lines in the engine bay that it doesn't (in theory) have time to boil off. Obviously with that line out of the picture the flow rate is far, far lower (especially at idle), which is why the fuel winds up starting to boil off before it even gets to the pump.

The fuel supply changeover valve is only a couple of inches away from the offside exhaust manifold, and the feed from that then runs right over the top of the bell housing and along the nearside of the engine block - so there's plenty of opportunity for things to get hotter than ideal. I've definitely not discounted the idea of altering that routing somewhere down the line as it really just seems to be asking for trouble with modern fuels.

The immediate problem though is a clogged tank return line - and short of replacing the whole thing (which is most likely what will eventually be necessary) I'm not sure what to do about that. As with everything else aside from the bit between the fuel pump and carbs, this is all made in nylon and metal lines. I have tried the obvious thing, blowing back through it with the air line, and 115psi air didn't even touch it, so it's a pretty solid blockage. I've also tried rodding it out at the engine bay end (as the line does make a near 180 degree bend immediately so I was hoping that might be where the issue was), and it's definitely clear for a couple of metres (the longest bit of stiff enough wire that I had to hand). The lines are easy enough to access under the car as everything is in one bundle that runs along the offside chassis rail until they vanish upwards somewhere in the vicinity of the rear axle.

I pulled a couple of the trim panels inside the boot off to see if I could clearly see where the lines went - the answer being no. However I did discover more work I'll need to do. I'd commented on a couple of occasions that for a 70s British car that I had found the wiring in this thing to contain a surprisingly small number of bodges. Apparently I need to revise that to clarify that the *front* of the car is surprisingly free of bodges. The rear, not so much.

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Given the telltale holes in the parcel shelf, we know that there's been an aftermarket audio setup in here at some point - Which almost invariably seems to come with dodgy wiring.

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I'm hoping that between that and the tow bar most of this hackery is accounted for and as such will be pretty easy to tidy up/re-run as necessary.

That green wire that's been cut and is just flapping around in the breeze between the fuel tank and trim panel is green with a brown trace - which I believe marks it as the feed for the reversing lights. Which would definitely explain why they don't currently work. I remember it being mentioned that there had been issues with the tail lights on this car in the past so finding this lot wasn't entirely surprising really. However it's a job for another day as had neither the time nor energy to go chasing that any further today. Sure with a bit of time, a wiring diagram and a multimeter we can make sense of it. I'm equally sure once I've deleted obsolete speaker feeds and the dodgy looking tow bar wiring it will make far more sense.

Unfortunately you can't (as far as I can see) get to the feed/return lines on the fuel tank from in the boot. You can see a couple of at least the vent lines, but they just vanish behind the tank somewhere. Guessing that's an under-the-car job then...Yay, that will almost definitely ensure that I get a face full of unleaded while investigating things.
My website - aka. My *other* waste of time
Current fleet: 73 AC Model-70. 75 Rover 3500. 84 Trabant 601S. 85 Sinclair C5. 88 Renault 25 Monaco. 06 Peugeot Partner 1.6HDi.

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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog...Citroen, Mercedes, Sinclair & AC Model 70

#1392 Post by Zelandeth » Thu Nov 09, 2023 11:23 pm

Starting to feel *slightly* more human today so spent a few minutes poking the fuel return line issue.

I'm assuming that there is an orifice somewhere in the return line to ensure that there is sufficient pressure delivered to the carbs. The absence of anything at the engine end to that effect leads me to believe it's probably at the tank end. Most likely in the arrowed fitting.

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Looking at that more carefully, I see that it's actually feeding the fuel back to the tank via the feed for the reserve pickup. Actually not a bad idea...it saves having to have another pass through into the tank, and should also help prevent debris from gathering around that outlet.

Now I know I have good flow through the reserve outlet from the tank, so that's fine...the issue is going to be likely in that metal line going into the fitting. Which I've confirmed based on a couple of photos does need to be accessed from underneath the car. So that's going to be quite a faff - as I'd be willing to bet good money that the back axle is going to be precisely in the way. However it needs to be dealt with.

As a workaround in the meantime I *may* be able to cobble something together using one of the vent lines.

I have tried applying vacuum to the line as well in the off chance that it may be able to pull anything back out of it, but no dice. So we'll need to continue doing some battle with it.
My website - aka. My *other* waste of time
Current fleet: 73 AC Model-70. 75 Rover 3500. 84 Trabant 601S. 85 Sinclair C5. 88 Renault 25 Monaco. 06 Peugeot Partner 1.6HDi.

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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog...Citroen, Mercedes, Sinclair & AC Model 70

#1393 Post by Zelandeth » Tue Nov 14, 2023 6:34 pm

Fuel line I'd ordered arrived this morning to replace the rubber lines up front on the P6 which are unlikely to take kindly to ethanol. These on the other hand shouldn't care.

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Bought through Glencoe. Not the cheapest, but with so much counterfeit stuff floating around and all of the motor factors I've found so far just selling at best R6 rated hose, just seemed the safe option.

Fuel line routing has now been tidied up a bit.

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Not saying I won't revisit it in the future possibly, but that will be some day when I'm feeling less under the weather and it's not looking as though the heavens are about to open.

That jubilee clip on the top connection on the pump needs replacing with a proper fuel hose clip aside from anything else - I just couldn't find one in my stash the right size.
My website - aka. My *other* waste of time
Current fleet: 73 AC Model-70. 75 Rover 3500. 84 Trabant 601S. 85 Sinclair C5. 88 Renault 25 Monaco. 06 Peugeot Partner 1.6HDi.

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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog...Citroen, Mercedes, Sinclair & AC Model 70

#1394 Post by Zelandeth » Wed Nov 15, 2023 5:55 pm

Had a look to ascertain precisely how awful access to the fuel return line was at the tank end today.

Our target:

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Lines from left to right are return, reserve and main fuel feeds.

Access is as expected, awful with the car on its wheels. It's about in the middle of the photo below. Centre of the car, a good 6' or so from the back.

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I don't fit through that gap under the boot floor or under the Di-Dion tube which is also in my way. I can just about touch it at full stretch from where I can get to, but definitely not in a way I can do anything useful. We'll need to either get the car up on ramps, or possibly jacked up, remove the offside rear wheel and see if we can get enough access from there - I didn't take note of how much clearance there was around the driveshaft. I think that's probably the way to go though. Given that this job is absolutely going to result in some spillage of fuel, I'd rather it land on the ground in front of me rather than dripping in my face, it tastes revolting and doesn't half sting if it goes in your eyes.

The plan such as it is at this point is basically to crack the return connection off and see if fuel comes out. If the answer is yes, the blockage is in the line between the engine bay and the tank - if not, hopefully we can clear it by poking a bit of wire into the fitting. Failing that, I'll need to get a whole bunch of fuel cans and drain the tank (all 15 gallons of it) so I can pull the whole lot out to attack off the car. Sure that will be a barrel of laughs.
My website - aka. My *other* waste of time
Current fleet: 73 AC Model-70. 75 Rover 3500. 84 Trabant 601S. 85 Sinclair C5. 88 Renault 25 Monaco. 06 Peugeot Partner 1.6HDi.

Dick
Posts: 1291
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:31 pm

Re: Zel's Fleet Blog...Citroen, Mercedes, Sinclair & AC Model 70

#1395 Post by Dick » Wed Nov 15, 2023 6:58 pm

Oh that does look like fun! Good luck with that mate :scared:

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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog...Citroen, Mercedes, Sinclair & AC Model 70

#1396 Post by Zelandeth » Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:09 pm

Dick wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2023 6:58 pm
Oh that does look like fun! Good luck with that mate :scared:
It's one of those things where the actual job is probably not that difficult. It's just a pig to get to. A new sender unit isn't horribly expensive at least if it comes to that.

-- -- --

Had some errands to run earlier today, so of course I took the most sensible car.

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The weather being something actually resembling chilly today has reminded me however that I still haven't got around to attempting to flush out the heater core. Having at least some vague suggestion of a heater would be appreciated at this time of the year and it's currently doing absolutely nothing. The heater box itself is barely lukewarm, so I don't think we have any appreciable coolant flow through the core at all. Given how choked up the supply pipe was when I changed it that doesn't really surprise me. I really should have flushed everything when I changed the coolant lines, but was kind of racing the clock then and just wanted the job done back then. On the plus side it's the highest point in the system so doesn't involve having to drain anything beyond the heater itself.

I have checked and confirmed that the valve is opening/closing when the controls are operated (or at least the actuator arm is moving - whether the valve itself is totally blocked is another matter entirely) so it's not something really simple like that having stuck. I'm really not expecting a huge amount of a heater from a car of this era, but currently it's doing nothing so obviously needs some attention.
My website - aka. My *other* waste of time
Current fleet: 73 AC Model-70. 75 Rover 3500. 84 Trabant 601S. 85 Sinclair C5. 88 Renault 25 Monaco. 06 Peugeot Partner 1.6HDi.

Dick
Posts: 1291
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:31 pm

Re: Zel's Fleet Blog...Citroen, Mercedes, Sinclair & AC Model 70

#1397 Post by Dick » Fri Nov 17, 2023 3:33 pm

Zelandeth wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:09 pm
Dick wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2023 6:58 pm
Oh that does look like fun! Good luck with that mate :scared:
It's one of those things where the actual job is probably not that difficult. It's just a pig to get to. A new sender unit isn't horribly expensive at least if it comes to that.

-- -- --

Had some errands to run earlier today, so of course I took the most sensible car.

Image

The weather being something actually resembling chilly today has reminded me however that I still haven't got around to attempting to flush out the heater core. Having at least some vague suggestion of a heater would be appreciated at this time of the year and it's currently doing absolutely nothing. The heater box itself is barely lukewarm, so I don't think we have any appreciable coolant flow through the core at all. Given how choked up the supply pipe was when I changed it that doesn't really surprise me. I really should have flushed everything when I changed the coolant lines, but was kind of racing the clock then and just wanted the job done back then. On the plus side it's the highest point in the system so doesn't involve having to drain anything beyond the heater itself.

I have checked and confirmed that the valve is opening/closing when the controls are operated (or at least the actuator arm is moving - whether the valve itself is totally blocked is another matter entirely) so it's not something really simple like that having stuck. I'm really not expecting a huge amount of a heater from a car of this era, but currently it's doing nothing so obviously needs some attention.
I once refitted a fuel pipe on a Peugeot 305, we had broken down in rush hour on the bristol road in pouring rain, this mixed with the lake of petrol that was under the car.. we managed to get one side of the car on the kerb leaving just enough space for me to slide underneath and reconnect the fuel pipe.. petrol pouring down my arms.. I was soaked, by the time I got home.. only 15 miles but my skin was burning.. still makes me wince thinking about it..

If the rover heater flush doesn't work it might pay to have the heater matrix recored.. I did it with my jcb, it was a great investment for the winter..

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog...Citroen, Mercedes, Sinclair & AC Model 70

#1398 Post by Zelandeth » Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:23 pm

Dick wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2023 3:33 pm
Zelandeth wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:09 pm
Dick wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2023 6:58 pm
Oh that does look like fun! Good luck with that mate :scared:
It's one of those things where the actual job is probably not that difficult. It's just a pig to get to. A new sender unit isn't horribly expensive at least if it comes to that.

-- -- --

Had some errands to run earlier today, so of course I took the most sensible car.

Image

The weather being something actually resembling chilly today has reminded me however that I still haven't got around to attempting to flush out the heater core. Having at least some vague suggestion of a heater would be appreciated at this time of the year and it's currently doing absolutely nothing. The heater box itself is barely lukewarm, so I don't think we have any appreciable coolant flow through the core at all. Given how choked up the supply pipe was when I changed it that doesn't really surprise me. I really should have flushed everything when I changed the coolant lines, but was kind of racing the clock then and just wanted the job done back then. On the plus side it's the highest point in the system so doesn't involve having to drain anything beyond the heater itself.

I have checked and confirmed that the valve is opening/closing when the controls are operated (or at least the actuator arm is moving - whether the valve itself is totally blocked is another matter entirely) so it's not something really simple like that having stuck. I'm really not expecting a huge amount of a heater from a car of this era, but currently it's doing nothing so obviously needs some attention.
I once refitted a fuel pipe on a Peugeot 305, we had broken down in rush hour on the bristol road in pouring rain, this mixed with the lake of petrol that was under the car.. we managed to get one side of the car on the kerb leaving just enough space for me to slide underneath and reconnect the fuel pipe.. petrol pouring down my arms.. I was soaked, by the time I got home.. only 15 miles but my skin was burning.. still makes me wince thinking about it..

If the rover heater flush doesn't work it might pay to have the heater matrix recored.. I did it with my jcb, it was a great investment for the winter..
Petrol is quite unpleasant stuff, though at least is slightly less insidious than diesel...get that on you and the smell is just inescapable for what feels like forever!

If a flush doesn't sort it that will probably just be a problem for the next owner to address. Fingers crossed though we can get it going.

-- -- --

I definitely need to do something about the exhaust again as this car is definitely trying to asphyxiate me. This was an issue back when I got it, but was pretty much solved when I bodged together a hasty repair to the exhaust silencer. The exhaust paste I splodged on there did last a lot longer than I expected but has clearly flaked off again. For the sake of £125 I'll probably just cough up for a new silencer. The rest of the system looks fine, just the end plates on the silencer itself that have gone. If I take it off and try to weld it up I'll most likely just end up blowing more holes in it and making things worse - ending up with me buying a new one AND wasting a bunch of time. I also absolutely *despise* messing with exhausts, so having a solution which involves me only having to fight with it once definitely is favourite.

Trying not to spend money on a car I'm planning on selling...but equally maintenance needs to happen. Which reminds me it's also due an oil change - given that means buying 10 litres of oil that will sting a bit too!
My website - aka. My *other* waste of time
Current fleet: 73 AC Model-70. 75 Rover 3500. 84 Trabant 601S. 85 Sinclair C5. 88 Renault 25 Monaco. 06 Peugeot Partner 1.6HDi.

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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog...Citroen, Mercedes, Sinclair & AC Model 70

#1399 Post by Zelandeth » Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:22 pm

I had a bit more of a poke around at the blocked fuel return on the P6 this afternoon.

One issue I'd had with trying to blow the line clear before was that due to the connectors involved I'd really been struggling to get a good seal to the air line to get any actual pressure into it. After a rummage through a fairly decent collection of connectors and such like I couldn't find anything which would help me, so found an area that it wouldn't be obvious and just cut the nylon line in the engine bay. Not ideal, but it will be absolutely fine - it's entirely likely that I'll wind up having to replace the line anyway depending whether the fitting at the other end decides to play ball, which I'm not convinced it will given the looks of them.

This meant that I could attach a length of rubber hose to it which I could seal properly to the air line. Sadly it achieved nothing - the return line is quite happily holding 120psi with no appreciable decay over a minute or so. That line is well and truly blocked. Next step will indeed have to be trying to get under the car to see if I can get the return fitting loose from the tank and *hopefully* rod out whatever's causing this blockage. Though I'm kind of expecting that the answer is going to be internal corrosion within the fitting having closed things up, so replacement of the fitting will be the only way to properly sort it.

I'd be lying if I said that part of me wasn't pondering the merits of just capping off the offending line and engineering an alternative tank return to get us running until the weather is better and/or I can attack the problem with the car on a proper lift. Really don't think it would be too difficult to set something up.
My website - aka. My *other* waste of time
Current fleet: 73 AC Model-70. 75 Rover 3500. 84 Trabant 601S. 85 Sinclair C5. 88 Renault 25 Monaco. 06 Peugeot Partner 1.6HDi.

Dick
Posts: 1291
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:31 pm

Re: Zel's Fleet Blog...Citroen, Mercedes, Sinclair & AC Model 70

#1400 Post by Dick » Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:22 am

Could run a bit of small bore copper tube as a return pipe, save a lot of hassle?

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