Vulgalour's Vehicles - 10/03 Ignition Switch Woe

[vulgalour]

Made use of my free time again today.  I'd worked out the theory for building the number plate box and today set about making one up in cardboard before transferring that to metal.  I checked out inside the tool compartment too since I've got good access for that at the moment and now I finally understand how water was getting in here.  The whole compartment runs right to the edges of the car so any holes in the inner or outer wing where the wheels throw up spray allows the water to get straight in.  Trouble is, there's no much in the way of drainage so the water can't get back out!  Luckily it's in reasonable enough shape to not need me to really do anything in here so I'll leave it alone and treat it as a useless void when everything is welded up.  You can make out where the valance has been repaired previously, at least they bothered to cut the rust and/or damage out when they did this.
 
Looking right.

 
Looking left.

 
Before I could actually get the new box made up I wanted to clean the area I was going to be welding it to first.  That took rather longer than I'd anticipated so the orange piece on the floor is the flat-pack piece of metal I need to clean, fold and weld into a new number plate box.  I ended up chasing out the paint and old filler on the back valance, scrubbing off some underseal and then chased filler and old paint out all the way along the rear wing.

 
I found two little holes under the filler flap that have been filled with fibreglass.  This is a common rot spot on Princesses, I'm not entirely sure why.  Shan't be fun to weld as it's so close to the filler neck so I'll likely leave this until I drop the tank to do the boot floor.

 
Rediscovered the first patch I welded onto the car three years ago.  Still attached just as it was back then, a hasty job that was done deliberately badly to remind me I needed to do it properly.  You can see just how much the rot has started to creep up this panel.  Again this is common on Princesses, the other side has had several substantial pieces let in badly in this area and ideally wants redoing to look better.  I'm undecided about leaving this bit for now, it definitely needs doing but it's not urgent for MoT.

 
There's quite a few dents on the back valance, they look like the sort of dents you get from hitching a trailer up badly so it's likely my car had a tow bar once upon a time, many of them did.

 
I'd been told that to remove underseal the best way is to use a brush dipped in thinners and then a rag to wipe it off.  After doing this for the bits of the valance I need to I'm unconvinced it's the best method, it takes a long time and I'm not convinced it's the way anyone really wants to do it.  I'd like to get all the old underseal off because I found a large area that had no paint at all underneath it and I don't know what else is being hidden that could really do with some paint putting on.

 
 
We'll have to see how I'm fixed for spare time tomorrow, I might get that box made up and welded in so that I can crack on with filler work and then paint.  If I can keep on at this pace for the rest of the week it should be weatherproof enough to go outdoors again by the end of the week.

[vulgalour]

Popped into the unit today and made the milestone of completing all the custom bodywork welding that needs to be done. Usually, I'd take lots of pictures of just what was done, this time I didn't. My brother was keeping me company and arrived just as I was tacking the new number plate box in. That means no progress pictures of the box I had to make from scratch, or the fiddly work of bending it to match the three opposing curves in the panel. It was quite a quick job really. I also blanked the old bumper holes with my brother helping by holding the tiny little pieces in from behind while I welded them from the front. With that all done, I drilled a single hole just above where the number plate sits for the ultra bright LED number plate light. Originally I had two of these but one the wires snapped off close to the housing when it was removed. I only need one, they're incredibly bright, and it's a nice subtle solution since the panel will be a dark colour.



Doesn't seem like it'll be enough light, so here's a shot from when there were two on the back. Pretty sure it'll be fine.


Everything on the back was cleaned up, the welds flattened down and primed so I could see what I was really dealing with. This panel has had a lot of abuse over the years so it's going to need a lot of work to get straight. I got as far as primer guide and first fill before I ran out of time. I've applied seam sealer where the bottom joins the side of the light buckets, running my finger around to make it smooth. That should keep the weather out of the boot and give a nicer finish when painted.


I'm feeling very happy about this so far. Now that I'm on to the tedium of filler and paint I feel like I'm in more comfortable territory. There isn't this huge pile of jobs ahead of me anymore, it's all fettling now.

[vulgalour]

Today I finally got chance and was motivated enough to pull the engine out of the Renault and get to the bottom of this problem. Originally I had wanted to get the sump off with the engine in the car, this was thwarted by the chassis blocking access to the sump bolts. This engine is horrible to work on when it's in the car. So I determined to haul it out, which is a big horrible job.

I just knuckled down and got on with it and, amazingly, just an hour and a half later I'd managed to do it completely solo. I didn't even remove the face, but I will be when I put the engine back in because it's an absolute war getting the engine and box out with the face attached.


I found I could leave a lot of things attached which sped up the job quite a bit and will make reinstalling the engine and gearbox that much easier. You can see the flange on the chassis rails which obscures access to the sump bolts here too. The anti-roll bar also prevents you from dropping the sump that far even if you could unbolt it. Horrible.


I cheated with the driveshafts. I need to replace some of the balljoint bolts because, as highlighted previously, I'd put them in 'upside down'. That meant that a couple of the lower ones got bent out of shape and were tricky to remove, unlike the top ones which were unaffected but could do with being flipped around. Not a big deal. So that I didn't have to disconnect and drain the brake system again I propped the hubs up on a pair of spare axle stands to take the stress off the flexible hose.


With the engine and gearbox wheeled indoors I just beat the weather turning. I didn't have a huge amount of time, thankfully I did have a checklist of possible problem areas:

Starter motor - removed and found to be working perfectly fine, as well it ought considering it's only just been reconditioned. This was not locking the flywheel and eliminated as a possible problem.

Gearbox - there was a concern the layshaft could have got stuck. Happily this too was ruled out as it turns freely by hand. I can't say anything about the condition of the gearbox beyond that as it's an unknown quantity.

Clutch - no problems apparent. Clutch fork is still operating the release bearing. None of the visible components have any problems apparent.

At each stage we tested to see if the crankshaft would turn and it wouldn't so we got to the point that the sump was removed for inspection. First thing was to inspect the contents of the sump. Unsurprisingly there's a little bit of sludge that must have been pumped out of the nooks I couldn't get into but no sparklies or chunks of metal or anything that might cause any alarm. There was what looked like grit at first, you can see some in the reflection, but if you squidge it with your finger it's just little blobs of sludge. The oil in the car, which is brand new, is still fairly opaque with just some discolouration from the muck that's still floating around. Not a problem because this oil is only put in to flush the engine through anyway, it's just doing its job.


That only left one area, which was the bearings themselves. Happily, access is really easy to all this. I'm doing it laid on its side rather than on the engine stand as to get the engine to bolt on to the engine stand means removing the clutch and I don't want to do that. This way works just fine. I was very fortunate in that Accord83 on the Retro Rides forum very kindly provided a Renault 6 workshop manual which has all the information I'll ever need including the torque settings for the bearing caps. Here's the thing, I'd set this and the timing according to the instructions in the Haynes manual and not only was the timing wrong but the bearing caps were all torqued up too tight. Doing things by the book is fine, providing the book you're using is actually any good.


I'd already run out of time by this point but I hung on for a few minutes resetting the caps, checking the bearing shells and guess what? Now the engine turns by hand, like it should. Here's where I feel a bit unsure about putting the engine back in the car because last time it went in I as sure the engine turned over by hand, it was stiff but it turned, and then when all the oil got circulated it stopped being able to be turned by hand. This time it turns very smoothly and very freely by hand, everything is well oiled and I'm hoping it doesn't tighten up on me when it goes back in the car. If I can find some way of bench testing it before refitting it I will.

I'll set the timing and build everything up while it's out of the car, just like I did last time, but this time I'll refer to the new Workshop Manual and probably put the Haynes book in the bin where it belongs.

[vulgalour]

Renault news
Brief though it is. I've been a bit of a noob and have half the parts of the engine at home and half at the unit, so I can't measure the journals. Spesh, I know. What I have been able to do is measure the crankshaft with the micrometers and found that all the bits that run against the bearings are all uniform with no sign of ovalling or distortion. I hope that means I can avoid a crankshaft regrind. I've also found that the problem journal/bearing in the engine is the same one that had a stuck piston when I dismantled it, so that's probably related to the HGF etc.

I've come to the conclusion that I'm going to plan any engine, stock or otherwise, until I've learned how to investigate this one. If I can understand what went wrong and what's needed I'm in a better place to resolve that. I just need to get all the bits and all the tools in the same place... which I managed to forget to do today and only realised after I'd done the 4 mile drive to the unit.

Princess news
I've ordered a compression fitting for the pipe to replace the bodge and very suddenly found that the car now needs to be put outside again. I don't have enough time to finish off all the filler before the paint goes on, which is very annoying. In protest, the pipe bodge has started to leak and now the car can't easily be moved because it's resting its arches on its tyres.

Not to worry, I did what I could with the filler on the car to make it look as presentable as I could in the time I had and then used the paint I do have to get a weather proof coating on the primer and bare metal areas before it does go outside. This is not the way I wanted to do things, it's the way it has to be. I'd rather a quick bodge-paint now to flash rust and bigger problems later. It means I'll likely only be able to bring the car in for a single day to get work done or work outdoors which is not an ideal situation but one I've worked in before.

Photographs quite well, all the same. The filler work that's left to do is the final fettling, the bit that takes ages to get right. The bulk of it is done. It's not too shabby from a few feet away. I'll reinstall the rear lights tomorrow most likely when the paint has hardened a bit.








To be honest, you can't really see the bad bits that much in the photographs and the purple is surprisingly flattering when it comes to imperfections. I'm likely switching to the Rustoleum beige in favour of the Halfords paint because it's a nicer, brighter shade that compliments the purple and it's cheaper. It's also nicer to work with and gives a smoother finish straight out the tin.

[vulgalour]

Happily I found a 1/2" compression fitting that just needs two new olives (ordered) before it can be fitted to sort out the Princess. Best of all, it didn't cost me anything. The other thing was getting the Renault home which revealed it's a very narrow little car, almost too narrow to fit on the tracks of the flatbed truck. Best of all, it's short enough that I have enough space at the back of my tiny garage to work on the engine comfortably. Plastigauge also arrived so I can get on with the measuring soon.

[JPB]

Grand stuff, that Renault is one hell of a save so well done. One point though, if I might: Bearing caps won't close up to any greater extent by being overtightened since [the caps] must meet the block and the rods without a space so only shells that are too thick could cause the problem that you addressed (quite understandably) by checking and slackening off the caps.
The caps would, if tightened to a higher torque figure than that stated in one manual, remain in the same position relative to their matching rods and to the bearing locations in the block, in the case of the mains, therefore only by effectively torquing down the caps to the point where the shells would no longer deform, the engine will indeed be less tight, but as soon as that shell beds in, there will be relative movement between its cap and that cap's mating face.

[vulgalour]

I'm going to be a little bit lazy and not check what I've already written, I'm not sure what I copied over. I had done a few things and not copied everything to every location, one of the issues with running the thread parallel on several forums and not always cross-posting information.

What you surmise is in line with other information I've received. I'll be organising the garage this weekend and hopefully getting things measured properly. I've already tried swapping the caps and it's always #3 that binds when torqued to the same as the other caps. Slacken it off just a bit and it rotates freely but clamp it up with any of the caps and it just sticks completely. Quite strange really.

I've checked the pistons are lined up properly and that they move freely, which they all do, and likewise checked the other components rotate freely. It's just #3 binding, no matter the combination of components, unless you back it off looser than all the rest.

In one way I'm glad my first engine rebuild has offered a problem, it's educational. In another way it's quite frustrating because the car is so very close to going for its first MoT in 23 years. But hey, I'm in a better situation to solve this now than I was a few days ago so I'm feeling uncharacteristically optimistic.

[vulgalour]

Right so, we have the Renault back at home now rather than at the unit. This is really useful as I now have all the bits of the car in an easy to get to location next to internet access so I can tinker or do larger jobs at my leisure much easier. No more the 8 mile round trip just to do a quick five minute job! Today, Mike and I pushed the Renault out onto the drive so we could have a bit of a sort of the garage and I could get the hosepipe into the rear arches to clean them out properly, the water pressure at the unit is very low so I couldn't do a great job there. Front arches proved to be quite clean as I'd had excellent access when the wings were off to really scrub everything properly.

I wasn't really expecting quite as much mud as I found.


What was nice was discovering just how solid everything really is. The trailing arms and some of the inner wings could do with a lick of paint and some protection to keep things this way but it's all remarkably good. Check out my green rear shocks that were previously just mud coloured.








I pulled out the strips of aluminium that had been used as mud guards. I haven't binned these as they'd actually done a remarkably good job of keep the mud out of the upper reaches of the rear arches, there was barely anything above them.


Repeat the hosing and scrubbing on the other side, remove yet more mud.


Same story this side. You can see the metallic blue of the bodyshell (which I'm now fairly certain is a replacement) and just a hint of the car's original metallic green on the trailing arm mount.


Again, the inner arch is in very good shape. What's confusing is that there appears to be no repairs or rust holes in the inner arch but there are substantially sized patches rivetted to the inside of the bodyshell. I had thought this was a single-skinned piece, perhaps it isn't?




Filler neck looked quite new compared to everything else, I wonder if it was replaced or if they just last really well.


After all the gunge and sludge had been flushed out as best I could we pushed the car down the drive to clean up and I put the other screw into the driver's door arm rest so it stays in place when you use it now.


I also found out that the missing switch is for the rear screen demister. So I'll need one of those since mine appears to be wired up, there's just no switch present.


I wondered if there's supposed to be a cap or a plug for the trailing arm mount. I flushed all the mud and rust flakes I could out of the hole. Everything appears quite solid just devoid of paint. I'll get this area cleaned up and given a coat of something to keep it solid, I've been told this is one of the main weak points on these cars and I'd like to keep mine as solid as I can. They look a bit flakey in the photograph but they're really not, I gave them a good poke and it's just the remnants of underseal, mud and detritus stained with some surface corrosion.








No expense spent on the one not-Michelin tyre. How cheap must this have been in the mid-90s? Marshal 777


The tracking on the front is off, I think this is because there's no engine or gearbox in there. Lots and lots of toe in and positive camber which can make the car difficult to push to begin with. All the hubs spin quite freely though the brand new brakes on the front definitely need to bed in a bit.


Replaced the bolts fixing the ball joints to the wishbones that had got bent and installed them the correct way around. These are high tensile steel so should be fine. I was surprised the brake dust shields were still servicable as they're made from wafer thin steel.




The floor is remarkably sound, well undersealed for the most part and relatively free of mud. This is a good thing.


I have enough space in the garage to walk all the way around the car and work on the engine. I'd forgotten about my little blue trolley, it's ideal for moving the engine about. Didn't get as far as doing any measuring today, it was all about getting the Renault settled into its new house.

[TerryG]

That is such a cool little car, best of luck sorting out your engine gremlins

[vulgalour]

Little bit of progress. I've been mostly out of action since the last update due to my back playing silly buggers and trying to convince me I'm thrice my actual age. So here's a little run down of where we're at with the fleet.

Renault - all that I've measured is the crank journals, all of which are even and all of which show 5 thou of wear compared to standard measurements. Looks like a regrind and oversized bearings are on the cards to resolve that when I've done the other measurements.

Rover - Still ace. Interestingly, the seats help relieve my chronic back pain so it's actually helped my recovery this past week when I've had to go out and do errands that my self-employment demands of me. Thermostat housing is still leaking but I'm driving around the problem for the short term until I can pin down a supplier of metal thermostat housings rather than forking out for another badly designed factory plastic one that'll just leak again. No problems to report at all either, it continues to just be terrific.

Princess - today I fitted a new condenser and put a jerry can of fuel in it which has sorted out the idling issue. What was thought to be a squealing clutch is actually a loose alternator belt so that'll be a free fix. My brother and I removed the 'temporary repair' to the hydragas pipe and fitted a new compression fitting to bridge the two pieces of pipe properly. We ran out of light to get the hydragas pipe connected to the displacer so that's a job for tomorrow providing we're both still mobile. As soon as the suspension is pumped up again I'll be booking the transporter so I can bring the Princess home and get through the various little pre-MoT jobs. Having the Princess at home will mean it gets more exercise too which should help improve the idling issue, it really isn't a car that likes being stood, it's always much better when it's used regularly even if that's just being driven back and forth on the drive.

Corsa - not mentioned this one in a while. My housemate recently fitted a needed new back box to the exhaust and that's really it. The little car has just been super at being a reliable little car whenever its needed and causing nobody any trouble. I expect this will continue to be the case for some time.

At the moment, old car life is good. At the moment.