Practically Classics Forum

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:09 am**

If you like the older style of cars, in this week's Classic Car Buyer is an Austin Sheerline for a fiver short of eight grand.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:24 am**

I've got a recollection of seeing that featured in PC

Posted: **Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:00 am**

Another important point is that classics rise in value when people reach an age where they have the disposable income to buy their dream car. Right now, the late 70's and early 80's cars are popular because the kids who used to dream about them are now in their late 40's and 50's, they are at the top of their careers, their kids have grown up and they have some spare change to spend.

In a decade, 90's cars will be climbing while 50's and 60's motors will drop in value as that market shrinks. If you're looking for an affordable classic, you might want to look at something older as it becomes less popular.

Posted: **Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:41 am**

alabbasi wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:00 am..

In a decade, 90's cars will be climbing.....

Hmm, OK, sorry to disappoint all of the many prospects I had lined up for my (1990 on the H) AE92R-shaped Toyota, look out for it on C&C some time in 2027. If only! A 27 year old car now is far "newer" than my first Austin A40 was when I was 16, even though the A40 was a mere 17 years of age at the time, nobody, well maybe very few, will want an older car that essentially feels the same as and does all the same stuff as its current equivalent from the dealership. I did, because there's a certain satisfaction to be had in ordering OEM parts over the trade counter at Toyota. Even when the A40 would have been ten years old, BL had long since stopped carrying its model-specific parts and the challenge was all the greater which was how its seats were from a Datsun Sunny, its instruments and much of the loom from the same donor and its petrol tank from a Reliant Regal, mounted in the boot and painted to look like a keg.
I get the notion of people buying their dream classic under the circumstances that Al suggests, but what about the very many of us for whom "classicness" and so desirability involves the feeling of driving something from a bygone age rather than simply being an older version of what's still in the showrooms, split new, now?
I had my Benz phase when I was around thirty, the W114 series 220A that we ran back then was a rust free specimen in the best shade of very dark blue solid, had only covered 54,000 miles from new and cost less than a month's earnings, its value now is far higher in real terms and that is precisely why it wouldn't appeal now if it were to be exhumed, given some fresh fuel, taken for its test and put back to work.
I remember when Practical Classics first came out, it was all about cars that could be run on a shoestring budget, didn't cost as much as the typical ten year old used cars from the bombsite horse traders' premises and felt at least a little old and interesting. Even now, though values are picking up by comparison to newer used cars, surely thinking about money takes the fun out of it for many of the readers of that 1980 magazine?

Posted: **Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:27 pm**

Cars are getting more generic looking and more complicated as they get newer but there are a few moderns that are destined to become classics. What this means in the future is that there will be fewer to be considered 'classics' but they're getting there. 90's era Supra, 3000GT and 300ZX are all climbing, R129 Mercedes were worth what they weighed a couple of years ago but not so much now.

I don't expect to see a 2007 Hyundai Sonata grace the Classic & Sports Car front cover anytime soon but maybe an R230 Mercedes is not too far away.

Posted: **Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:25 pm**

JPB wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:41 am
alabbasi wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:00 am..

In a decade, 90's cars will be climbing.....
I get the notion of people buying their dream classic under the circumstances that Al suggests, but what about the very many of us for whom "classicness" and so desirability involves the feeling of driving something from a bygone age rather than simply being an older version of what's still in the showrooms, split new, now?

That's actually an interesting point. In the internet age, you don't always realise how young or old the person you're talking to is and one thing that has surprised me is meeting people in their 20s (I'm in my mid thirties now) who regard the newest car I own as being 'just like the old car their parents had'. A Somerset is, admittedly, a world away from a Sunny, there was so much technological improvement that they might as well be two totally different vehicles. However, getting out of a Mk3 Ford Fiesta into a brand new VW Up!, for example, can be equally shocking to a younger driver or car enthusiast.

In a brand new car, things like cruise control, air conditioning, electric windows and sunroof, automatic lights, interactive dashboard displays, excellent sound systems and computer aided handling are pretty much a given. How many cars from the 90s have any of that, let alone all of it together? You've got to go pretty upmarket to get any of it, your run-of-the-mill Fiestas and Polos and Cavaliers didn't have many of these things. That's where the appeal is for the younger generation of car enthusiast who aren't so very different to those in the 70s that were wanting to tool around in old Austins for a feel of a bygone era.

People actually expect older cars to be more basic, even now, and it's amusing when you get a passenger expressing surprise at how nice your old car is. I think the most common comment of surprise from people that have got into any of mine is how comfortable they are. Who would have thought that comfort would be the thing people craved? Modern cars aren't geared towards comfort so much as they are towards being safe, fast and easy to drive. Quite a few people want to drive something that doesn't feel modern, or like a cocoon, just like the more traditional owner.

They actually want to feel more exposed, in a way more liberated, and they may want increased reliability and cheaper repair bills which is where the 90s cars hit the mark. If you want a little weekend car you can pamper, rely on and experience a simpler slice of motoring with but don't want to compromise on the creature comforts you enjoy in your modern, most 80s and 90s cars will do the trick. They're CHEAP too, even for really good ones.

It's just like it was and always will be. Classic cars are old cars, plain and simple. Some cars are considered more classic than others (and some classic car enthusiasts are certainly Animal Farm in their approach to enforcing this attitude) but all classic cars are just old cars that have survived for whatever reason. Buy what you want to own while you can. Accept that it may get beyond your reach and look for alternatives. Be open to experiencing new things and never shut your eyes to an opportunity just because it's not exactly the age, shape and colour that you want.

Posted: **Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:13 pm**

vulgalour wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:25 pmIn a brand new car, things like cruise control, air conditioning, electric windows and sunroof, automatic lights, interactive dashboard displays, excellent sound systems and computer aided handling are pretty much a given. How many cars from the 90s have any of that, let alone all of it together?

I'm told that my car doesn't have 128 items found on modern cars. Some might say that's 128 things that can't go wrong. But there is one modern gizmo that drivers are mostly unaware of, that I miss every time I fill up with fuel. In the neck of the fuel tank, a sensor will automatically shut of fuel supply when the tank is full. My sensor is my shoes, when they get wet and stink of petrol, the tank is full.

Posted: **Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:45 pm**

vulgalour wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:45 pm You need the speculators and cars worth daft money to ensure there's a ready supply of aftermarket parts and interest in older cars. Consider how easy an MG B is to keep in fresh bodywork now compared to, say 20 years ago. Consider how easy it is to restore a Mini that would not have been financially viable just ten years ago. The more the popular classics become expensive, the more the unusual and unloved classics get looked after.

If you're buying as an investment you buy differently to if you're buying to enjoy. If you don't want your asset to depreciate it, don't use it, and for most cases that rules out the fun of owning a classic car. There's only so much polishing and being terrified of the doors of other cars and sticky hands of children at shows a person can take! So, look at what you love and take a step sideways if you want value for money out of your classic and aren't concerned about depreciation.

The MG B is still an affordable, in most cases, easy to look after classic but needs a lot of attention all the time if you're using it regularly. Instead, consider an early Mazda MX-5, it's like an MG B but better in pretty much every way, including pop up headlights. Ford Escort too pricey now? How about a competitor from back in the day, since they do appear from time to time; the Hillman Avenger (or Chrysler, or whatever, good old Rootes). Some would argue the Avenger is actually the more entertaining and accomplished car to pilot and values aren't so astronomical. Like the practicality and comfort of the Austin Maxi but can't find a nice one for good money? A late model Citroen CX could well be the answer, plus the suspension is just that bit better and has parts support. The CX still looks like it's landed from outer space too. VW Golfs are very popular, but then so was the Talbot Horizon (and Chrysler... Rootes again) and for some reason the Horizon just hasn't gone silly on the price in the same way. Perhaps you like having a slow journey to spend cramped in a little tin box. You'll be after a VW Camper for that but they are very, very expensive and often chock full of terrible repair work you can't see until it's too late. Choose a Commer PB instead and the rust and problems will generally be proudly on display, they're a bit quicker too and generally have more space inside. You get the idea, you don't necessarily have to pick the thing you really want to get what you really like in a vehicle.

For the most part, there isn't a car over 30 years old now that's going to be worth any less than it is at the current point in time. As they become rarer, or more recognised, or both, values do tend to increase. In part this increase in price is down to inflation, in part it's because people are always looking for the next affordable classic and while there's always going to be that car we WANT to own, generally a compromise has to be accepted if funds don't permit. Sometimes you find something you really enjoy as a result, and sometimes it's good not to meet your heroes.

So, do I practice what I preach? I try to.

1994 Rover 414SLi - was looking for a two door sports car without a sunroof, like a Daihatsu Copen. Didn't so much step sideways as leave the country on this one.
23 years old
Bought for just under £300 on the road in July 2015 and used daily since. Full mechanical overhaul including head gasket change and wearing 113,000 miles it's never going to be worth megabucks but I daresay my £700 or so investment in maintenance and repair has turned my £300 car into a £500 one. Oops.

1980 Austin Morris Princess - was actually looking for this. Hmm... no sideways stepping at all. I was open to a Maxi, Ambassador or Allegro if one came along though.
37 years old
Bought for £450 on the road in 2012, used daily for about 18 months. Life and rust conspired against me for a couple of years and it is now modified to my taste which makes valuing it harder. However, if it were the same car I bought in 2012 before I did all the work it needed, it would now set me back £800. Sentimentality means the car is irreplacable to me but I suspect it's actual worth once it has a fresh MoT and paint is going to be nearer the £1200 mark. Prices are going up on Princesses, some sold last year for £4-5000, which isn't bad for a car you couldn't give away in the 90s.

1975 Renault 6TL - Was considering a Triumph Mayflower or an Austin A40 Farina. Sideways step achieved.
42 years old
Bought for £80, not on the road. In fact, it had been off the road for 20 years, didn't run and has been a real labour of love to put right. Now, when 6s do pop up for sale, they command a higher price than you might expect. Mine looks terrible (it has done 132,000 miles and had a bodyshell swap in its past) but is mechanically pretty well sorted, just being held up with a difficult-to-source, model specific radiator at present. Parts are cheap and most are plentiful because it's a platform shared with the Renault 4 so things like brakes and other consumables are fairly easy to acquire, important when trying to run a classic regularly. There's no point me repainting it as the cost of a respray would exceed the value of the car. I expect it will be worth around £1000 with an MoT, possibly more because it's far more solid than looks might suggest.

It's all about what you want from a classic. For me it's the enjoyment of tinkering with an old car, sometimes the hunt for parts and unusual accessories is fun and just the responses from friends and strangers alike. If you're after an affordable traditional classic, you're going to struggle. MG A and Ford Escorts and Austin Minis are all so popular now that the demand outstrips supply and pushes the prices up accordingly.

Good post Vulgalour, did you read all the responses? I've pretty much decided on a Chrysler Crossfire now. But for the sake of debate I'll continue with the discussion.

Regarding your point, I DID have a car that ticked all the boxes. It was cheap, sporty, not too modern that it was impossible to work on so still enjoyable to an extent. That car was a Ford Puma. Seriously under rated cars in my opinion and had I had the option to ship it to the USA I would have done, but alas I had to sell it. While I've thoroughly enjoyed your blogs, I wouldn't want a classic I don't enjoy just for the sake, bland cars I'm not particularly passionate about are perfect for my daily drivers but one of the key points of classic ownership for me is opening the garage door and saying "Wow". That doesn't mean I have to have an Aston Martin in the garage, just something I am really passionate about. If I get more space that might change but for now having a number of classics "Just because" isn't possible. I had a Rover 414 like yours, as my first car so while it was one of the most comfortable cars I've ever owned, I have no interest in doing K series head work again

The Mazda MX5 is a good suggestion, though a little common for my taste.

I have the option of picking up a MK1 Capri here fairly cheaply too ($5000 buys a good one) but seeing as cars in general here are expensive ($3000 buys you a runner, anything under that needs serious work) that's a good price. Allabassi suggested some 80's yank tanks to me but none of them inspired me. Another option is a BMW E30, a 325i can be had here needing work for a few grand, so that's an option. Once I get settled I will keep people updated but have enjoyed everyone's input.

alabbasi wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:00 am Another important point is that classics rise in value when people reach an age where they have the disposable income to buy their dream car. Right now, the late 70's and early 80's cars are popular because the kids who used to dream about them are now in their late 40's and 50's, they are at the top of their careers, their kids have grown up and they have some spare change to spend.

Baby boomer generation.

Posted: **Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:15 am**

I was more answering the title and the discussion I'd dipped into so I guess I must have missed a resolution in here with the Chrysler. My bad. Still, it is interesting reading some views on this topic and how people approach classic car ownership. I know my approach is not the most conventional since it's coloured by necessity since I can't afford a new car even if I wanted one so I'd rather sink my hard earned into an older car that's within my budget and less than I'd have to fork out on finance.

Posted: **Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:46 am**

3xpendable wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:45 pm
alabbasi wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:00 am Another important point is that classics rise in value when people reach an age where they have the disposable income to buy their dream car. Right now, the late 70's and early 80's cars are popular because the kids who used to dream about them are now in their late 40's and 50's, they are at the top of their careers, their kids have grown up and they have some spare change to spend.
Baby boomer generation.

More like Generation X

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