Wolseley 16/60 temperature reading problem

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tractorman
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Re: Wolseley 16/60 temperature reading problem

#11 Post by tractorman » Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:07 pm

Later (and larger) ACRs did indeed use two current-carrying leads (rather than a sense connection or an empty terminal). This is not just a Lucas thing though - the Magneto Marelli on the Land Rover has the same thing - actually, there's also a third B+ stud terminal on the back. IIRC, the more modern Lucas alternators (A210?? - I don't remember the numbers as it's a while since I used a Lucas alternator) are almost identical to the Marelli one (as in the maker's label seems to be the only difference!)

The important thing is to check the alternator's spec and wiring/terminal connections before connecting it up! I discovered this when I innocently fitted a new alternator to Father's Maxi just before going to make hay at a friend's farm for a few days. When I came home, Father told me the battery had gone flat (again) and he had had to go to the local garage to get it sorted. The old alternator was machine sensing and the new was battery sensing (and even if it said on the thing, I wouldn't have known what to do in those days), so a quick fix was needed (a link wire between the two terminals).

With regards to the Wolseley, as others have said, the charging voltage needs sorting out. Perhaps it would be possible to include a VR for the instruments into the original wiring and make them more "stable".

I know it's not the modern way, but I have no problems with dynamos on older cars - they look right and work well enough if you don't have too many extras and use the car enough to keep the battery topped up. If my old Hornet's dynamo could cope with all the stuff I had hanging off the electrical system, I suspect a "respectable" Farina will manage!

poolystan
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Re: Wolseley 16/60 temperature reading problem

#12 Post by poolystan » Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:17 pm

I've had another play today, I measured the voltage from the transmitter wire with the ignition switched on and did the same with the fuel gauge wire , both read 12.2 volts. I then measured the voltage on both wires from the ignition switch to the temp gauge and the fuel gauge again with the ignition switched on and both measured 7.2 volts. If there is supposed to be no voltage stabiliser fitted to my car and I cant find one where is this resistance coming from ? any ideas are welcome.

suffolkpete
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Re: Wolseley 16/60 temperature reading problem

#13 Post by suffolkpete » Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:29 pm

The regulator should be checked open-circuit, with the A and A1 connections disconnected from the box and connected together. Under these conditions regulation should take place at 16 to 16.5 volts. The figures of 14 to 14.4 volts being quoted are what one would expect from an alternator installation. There is no voltage stabiliser fitted to these cars
1974 Rover 2200 SC
1982 Matra Murena 1.6

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JPB
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Re: Wolseley 16/60 temperature reading problem

#14 Post by JPB » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:06 pm

suffolkpete wrote:...There is no voltage stabiliser fitted to these cars
Pete, this would appear to be true of the the O/P's example but during that last year of production there was [a stabiliser] on the back of the round multi gauge, this from around the time the scale changed from 100 to 80 psi on the oil pressure.
my '64 Oxford VI was a 'mare to sort when its gauges started misbehaving because it had been fitted with what was new at the time and the wiring changed but only on the inside of the bulkhead so its oil pressure capillary was connected to an adapter - of the type used more correctly on the oil gallery takeoff - that was attached to the place where the clutch master cylinder would have been if the car had had one, which then connected to the dash with the last foot of the wiring from that adapter up to its (later) gauge, over which someone had fitted the original scale, hence it always appeared to have an alarming 80psi of oil pressure at idle and only after two changes of relief valve did I spot the bodge.. :oops: That 80 was in fact more like 55-60, so was acceptable for a standard engine with little or no wear.
The stabiliser, when present, was designed to provide a stable 10 Volts to the gauges, but I think I prefer the notion that a weird instrument reading could provide a clue to a dynamo fault. The other thing that I don't get is that the book says that the electrical temperature sender came along at around the same time but both of my mid sixties examples - 4388DG and RLK361E - would originally have had the original capillary gauges for oil pressure and coolant temperature, hence my suggestion that these things may have had a random element.
No wonder the late cars also had a much easier way to open the bonnet, that had probably become necessary by then.
J
"Home is where you park it", so the saying goes. That may yet come true.. :oops:

suffolkpete
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Re: Wolseley 16/60 temperature reading problem

#15 Post by suffolkpete » Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:16 am

I've never come across a Farina with a capillary temperature gauge. Even my A55 Mk1 had an electric gauge and the official BMC workshop manual for the Wolseley only shows an electric gauge with no stabiliser. John, perhaps you could give me the factory manual reference? Going back to the original problem, the OP's auto electrician is correct and there is nothing wrong with the charging system. My '67 Oxford had a voltmeter fitted and it was quite normal to see around 15 volts with the battery fully charged after a long run, and I don't recall any misbehaviour of the gauges or frying of the battery. I would be looking at the cooling system again, all the usual suspects have been checked, so perhaps the coolant isn't being circulated properly at high revs. I've heard of cases of hoses collapsing internally and causing this type of problem.
1974 Rover 2200 SC
1982 Matra Murena 1.6

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JPB
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Re: Wolseley 16/60 temperature reading problem

#16 Post by JPB » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:46 am

The BL manual is a paperback reprint which appears to be much the same as 4026-D apart from some extra information relating to the last few cars, date of publication is given as July 1971. Where earlier editions had a blue or blue/white cover and the BMC rosette style logo, these last few had a red cover with the BL "plughole" motif at the top.
It's perfect, rather than ring bound but came from the now-defunct Subaru dealership, Osborne Garage, Osborne Rd, Jesmond, Newcastle 2, where ISTR that nobody else ever referred to it as my colleagues there were all older than I was then, so they rarely had to do any reading when BMC stuff came in, much of it dating back to the days when the garage sold new cars that hadn't come from Japan.
I also have a 1971 copy of BMC Autobook One and that doesn't agree with the BL manual. :?
J
"Home is where you park it", so the saying goes. That may yet come true.. :oops:

History
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Re: Wolseley 16/60 temperature reading problem

#17 Post by History » Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:44 pm

When the ignition is turned on if the gauge immediately flicks to the temperature that the engine is at, usually this points to no stabiliser.


If the gauge slowly rises then it points to a stabiliser.

If the dynamo is disconnected so the electrics are running on battery power alone does the temperature still show high.

A three coil ( cut out , voltage reg and amp reg.) is fitted then voltage regulation is performed. This regulator is called I believe RB 340 it's been a long time since I have messed with dynamos.

An advantage with battery sensed alternator regulation is that if a diode is put in series with the reference voltage wire. Then the 0.6 voltage drop on forward though the diode fools the regulator into charging at more volts. 0.6 volts more.

Silver calcium batteries like more volts ( 14.8 according to Ford)

My car has a diode in the reference voltage. The diode has a switch which shorts out the diode. When shorted the charge volts is 14.37v and un shorted ( switch off) 14.85v.

A refinement could be a voltage divider or potentiometer.

Question for the electronics guys. What value pot. A 1volt range is enough.

Bob.

suffolkpete
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Re: Wolseley 16/60 temperature reading problem

#18 Post by suffolkpete » Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:41 am

The regulator fitted to Farinas is a two coil type, the RB106, the third coil on the RB340 is for current regulation, not voltage. There is no need for the fancy solutions (alternators, regulators etc) being suggested if everything is working properly. If the problem really was voltage related, the fuel gauge would exhibit similar behaviour to that of the temperature gauge.
1974 Rover 2200 SC
1982 Matra Murena 1.6

History
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Re: Wolseley 16/60 temperature reading problem

#19 Post by History » Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:39 pm

SuffolkPete.

Absolutely correct.

The Lucas Dynamo systems of the 60s was a very well made system. Especially if the correct type of battery is fitted.

I have had a legion of cars with this system and I have never had problems.

Somewhere on the web is the Lucas service document that covers the system in depth. Might be mgguru. MG Guru.

Bob

poolystan
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Re: Wolseley 16/60 temperature reading problem

#20 Post by poolystan » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:05 pm

Hi again chaps, Here's the state of play as of today. This morning I got the car up to temperature and checked the engine temperatures at both idle and at revs, 77 oC and 81oC respectively so I'm reasonably confident that the engine is not overheating. I disconnected both dynamo leads and restarted the engine the temperature gauge behaved perfectly staying at a low temp setting and not rising when revved up. I reconnected the dynamo leads and rechecked the dynamo voltage, 12.6v and then 15.6v at revs. I then fitted the newly calibrated gauge that I have just bought, the results were the same the fault was still there. Then I adjusted the regulator/control box, reducing the voltage down to 14.2v, still the same fault. I checked as many earths as I could and found them all ok. I agree with you all that there is no voltage stabiliser on the car. Costs are starting to rack up a bit on this fault so any more ideas would be very welcome, I appreciate all the info to date and hope this further info from me will enable us to eliminate a few things, thanks stan

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