Will classics ever become affordable again?

[rich.]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/6538843 ... 8132090890

warning! contains facebook!! people of ghts age health should avoid it.. that said i am not sure if the link will work

[alabbasi]

..Somewhat of a false economy. The sunk costs of keeping them running, fixing whatever goes wrong and keeping them stored , insured and taxed usually exceeds appreciation.

Perhaps, but at least they provide a form of transport while you wait for appreciation to catch up with the value of your garage contents!

Cars rarely appreciate if they're driven daily. Especially when they're old cars. They tend to break more often and sourcing parts takes time which is no fun if you have to rely on one as a daily. Cars in the UK will rot even when parked if left to sit on the street or in a driveway. It's a pretty big gamble when you think about it because you never know when a certain car will go up in value and unless all the money is in the log book and chassis plates. You're probably going to be upside by the time you factor in labor , parts, storage and upkeep.

Now I'm not suggesting that people should not drive or enjoy classic cars, but if someone is looking for an investment, they're probably better served putting their money in a mutual fund. I would suggest property but I was back in London a few months ago and that bubble looks more like a giant blimp that's about to explode.

Now obviously most people will know that I'm a Mercedes Benz guy. One car that comes to my mind which is always under valued and under rated is the W114/W115 models and the W123 models.

The W114/5 cars can rust so you need to be careful, but as far as daily drivers are concerned, dealer support is still great, they handle really really well (IRS suspension, rear disc brakes) , diesels are frugal and 6 cylinder cars are still pretty quick. The W123 will do everything better except look as nice, drive as nice and have that old world clunk when you shut the door.

If you can find one, they actually make great old cars that you can drive daily but probably not that great an investment.

[GHT]

Cars rarely appreciate if they're driven daily....................Now obviously most people will know that I'm a Mercedes Benz guy. One car that comes to my mind which is always under valued and under rated is the W114/W115 models and the W123 models.

Some Mercedes have such kudos that people will bid millions just to sit in one and go brum, brum!

1954-Mercedes-Gull-Wing.jpg (32.24 KiB) Viewed 4728 times

[3xpendable]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/6538843 ... 8132090890

warning! contains facebook!! people of ghts age health should avoid it.. that said i am not sure if the link will work

Awesome page, thank for posting. It's a good thing I'm abroad now otherwise I'd be looking at some of those!

..Somewhat of a false economy. The sunk costs of keeping them running, fixing whatever goes wrong and keeping them stored , insured and taxed usually exceeds appreciation.

Perhaps, but at least they provide a form of transport while you wait for appreciation to catch up with the value of your garage contents!

Cars rarely appreciate if they're driven daily. Especially when they're old cars. They tend to break more often and sourcing parts takes time which is no fun if you have to rely on one as a daily. Cars in the UK will rot even when parked if left to sit on the street or in a driveway. It's a pretty big gamble when you think about it because you never know when a certain car will go up in value and unless all the money is in the log book and chassis plates. You're probably going to be upside by the time you factor in labor , parts, storage and upkeep.

Now I'm not suggesting that people should not drive or enjoy classic cars, but if someone is looking for an investment, they're probably better served putting their money in a mutual fund. I would suggest property but I was back in London a few months ago and that bubble looks more like a giant blimp that's about to explode.

Now obviously most people will know that I'm a Mercedes Benz guy. One car that comes to my mind which is always under valued and under rated is the W114/W115 models and the W123 models.

The W114/5 cars can rust so you need to be careful, but as far as daily drivers are concerned, dealer support is still great, they handle really really well (IRS suspension, rear disc brakes) , diesels are frugal and 6 cylinder cars are still pretty quick. The W123 will do everything better except look as nice, drive as nice and have that old world clunk when you shut the door.

If you can find one, they actually make great old cars that you can drive daily but probably not that great an investment.

I am somewhat of a MB fan too. Having owned a W123 200 and then a 190E. My dad, and latterly I, longed for a W115 (Stacked headlight as we called them) for a long time and I wouldn't say no to one now if it comes up. My dad did buy a gorgeous 280TE in Beige, but some prat wrote it off after only a few months of owning it.

Cars rarely appreciate if they're driven daily....................Now obviously most people will know that I'm a Mercedes Benz guy. One car that comes to my mind which is always under valued and under rated is the W114/W115 models and the W123 models.

Some Mercedes have such kudos that people will bid millions just to sit in one and go brum, brum!
1954-Mercedes-Gull-Wing.jpg

Yeah they are ridiculous money.

[alabbasi]

Cars rarely appreciate if they're driven daily....................Now obviously most people will know that I'm a Mercedes Benz guy. One car that comes to my mind which is always under valued and under rated is the W114/W115 models and the W123 models.

Some Mercedes have such kudos that people will bid millions just to sit in one and go brum, brum!
1954-Mercedes-Gull-Wing.jpg

I actually know a guy here in Dallas that has one of these (well, the convertible 300SL). He's about 80 and he does drive it. I know another fellow that was getting out of high school in 1973. He and his father went car shopping and looked at a gullwing, but they considered it waaaay too expensive at $10,000 and he bought an MGTD instead.

The question to ask is if he had bought it, would he have bothered to hold on to it long enough for it to be valuable and could he afford to keep it up?
I'm 43 now and I can already think of maybe 20 cars that I sold too cheap compared to what they cost now (various SL's , SLC 5.0's, 6.9's etc). Was I in a position to keep them? Sadly no, I ran out of space and at the time, I could not justify the extra expense of additional storage. If I could afford the storage, I would have spent more on storage than the appreciation.

I now have a bigger space, but as the saying goes, the more space you have, the more sh*t you find to put in it.

[Grumpy Northener]

Although I have owned classics of various species over the last 40 years for the last 3 years I have bought & sold a few - careful with what I purchase but always something that I can add value to - of the ten that have passed through my hands I have lost a shirt on one of them (poor quality shirt of the type GHT would wear) - I have never made less than £1,000 and in one case made ten times that - I run them whilst I have them to ensure that any problems on the mechanical front are addressed before I offer them for resale - If you watch the market and note what sells well whilst buying wisely then you will not go far wrong - ideally you need to be able to act quickly, have someone on hand for transporting purchases, be realistic & practical about what can be achieved with said purchase and a motor traders policy along with a set of trade plates helps - but classics can be purchased, run and sold without losing any money (most of the time)

[GHT]

(poor quality shirt of the type GHT would wear)

Keep a low profile in September Chris, because if my missus reads that, she'll crush your goolies. Each shirt is made of a rich cotton material that costs £20 @ metre, and there's three metres in every shirt. There's twenty hours of labour in the making, (what's your labour charge?) And there's about ten quids worth of notions, that's paper pattern, thread, buttons, collar stiffener and lining.
Cheap shirt? Makes me think of that Dolly Pardon quote: "It costs a fortune to look this cheap."

[3xpendable]

I actually know a guy here in Dallas that has one of these (well, the convertible 300SL). He's about 80 and he does drive it. I know another fellow that was getting out of high school in 1973. He and his father went car shopping and looked at a gullwing, but they considered it waaaay too expensive at $10,000 and he bought an MGTD instead.

The question to ask is if he had bought it, would he have bothered to hold on to it long enough for it to be valuable and could he afford to keep it up?
I'm 43 now and I can already think of maybe 20 cars that I sold too cheap compared to what they cost now (various SL's , SLC 5.0's, 6.9's etc). Was I in a position to keep thspentem? Sadly no, I ran out of space and at the time, I could not justify the extra expense of additional storage. If I could afford the storage, I would have more on storage than the appreciation.

I now have a bigger space, but as the saying goes, the more space you have, the more sh*t you find to put in it.

I don't think there is a car enthusiast on earth who hasn't said "If only I had kept that car". I had 6 Mk3 Capri's in the early 2000's and while I sold all of them on for profit, it was measured in hundreds and not the thousands I would get now if I still had them in the same condition. I scrapped a number of Ford Sierra's mainly for their engines (the 205 Pinto block is king among Capri owners) and now they are starting to get valuable, hell I had 6 or so Austin Metros we used to race on the farm, and now even they are getting worth more money! The only brand I see still selling for sensible money for 60's era cars in Vauxhalls. My dad picked up a 66 Viva SL90 and an 81 Viva van in 2014 for not a lot of money, and they weren't wrecks.

Although I have owned classics of various species over the last 40 years for the last 3 years I have bought & sold a few - careful with what I purchase but always something that I can add value to - of the ten that have passed through my hands I have lost a shirt on one of them (poor quality shirt of the type GHT would wear) - I have never made less than £1,000 and in one case made ten times that - I run them whilst I have them to ensure that any problems on the mechanical front are addressed before I offer them for resale - If you watch the market and note what sells well whilst buying wisely then you will not go far wrong - ideally you need to be able to act quickly, have someone on hand for transporting purchases, be realistic & practical about what can be achieved with said purchase and a motor traders policy along with a set of trade plates helps - but classics can be purchased, run and sold without losing any money (most of the time)

My dad and I have been similar, about 5-8 years ago we had a high turnover of classic cars and every one moved on with a (sometimes small) profit, there are bargains still out there to be had I think if you avoid the usual routes such as eBay. Nearly all the most recent 'Bargain' cars we have had were discovered through word of mouth or a local paper. I try and keep my dad away from all Classic car literature though, as he tends to fill up any garage space he has! In fact not even 2 weeks after I sold my MGB, he filled the vacant spot with a Riley RME!

(poor quality shirt of the type GHT would wear)

Keep a low profile in September Chris, because if my missus reads that, she'll crush your goolies. Each shirt is made of a rich cotton material that costs £20 @ metre, and there's three metres in every shirt. There's twenty hours of labour in the making, (what's your labour charge?) And there's about ten quids worth of notions, that's paper pattern, thread, buttons, collar stiffener and lining.
Cheap shirt? Makes me think of that Dolly Pardon quote: "It costs a fortune to look this cheap."

That's nice, I have a handkerchief with the same pattern on.

[alabbasi]

Let's define profit as:
1) where it sells for more than you paid for it?
2) where it sells for more than you paid + the parts?
3) where it sells for more than you paid + parts & labor?:
4) where it sells for more than you paid + parts, labor, tax, insurance and storage?
5) What about opportunity costs. Could I have invested in something else and made the same profit or more without the aggro?

We're all here because we're enthusiasts so while I'm sure some are making a living, I assume that we do this because we love it. I can say that I've made a profit on a number of cars if defined as 1 or 2 but not enough to fund the hobby, or even enough to cover the taxes on the building.

That's what the real work is for If I was going to try to make a living out of buying and selling cars, I would do what every other successful dealer does here and stick to newish popular sellers that I can buy at auction as lease returns and throw them straight on the lot without having to do the slightest bit of work on them because in most cases, the minute that labor is involved, you've lost your margin.

I have a real soft spot for Capri's, I considered one as a kid but at the time they suffered from an image problem (in the sense that a lot of people I did not want to be associated with in any way shape or form drove them) so I bought a Manta instead.

My first car was actually a Mark 3 Cortina that was being marketed as a 2000E but was actually a 1.6 L with a 2 liter engine and the interior of from a MK4 Cortina. I was 17 at the time. It was about 10pm in the evening and the savvy seller picked me up from Walthemstow station and drove it through some various back roads and into a council estate before parking and asking me if I wanted to buy it. It was only 200 GPB and I figured it was better than walking

I sold it to a guy I knew who put the engine in his M2 Escort and turned it into a pretty nice car. I didn't make any money on that deal.

[vulgalour]

You need the speculators and cars worth daft money to ensure there's a ready supply of aftermarket parts and interest in older cars. Consider how easy an MG B is to keep in fresh bodywork now compared to, say 20 years ago. Consider how easy it is to restore a Mini that would not have been financially viable just ten years ago. The more the popular classics become expensive, the more the unusual and unloved classics get looked after.

If you're buying as an investment you buy differently to if you're buying to enjoy. If you don't want your asset to depreciate it, don't use it, and for most cases that rules out the fun of owning a classic car. There's only so much polishing and being terrified of the doors of other cars and sticky hands of children at shows a person can take! So, look at what you love and take a step sideways if you want value for money out of your classic and aren't concerned about depreciation.

The MG B is still an affordable, in most cases, easy to look after classic but needs a lot of attention all the time if you're using it regularly. Instead, consider an early Mazda MX-5, it's like an MG B but better in pretty much every way, including pop up headlights. Ford Escort too pricey now? How about a competitor from back in the day, since they do appear from time to time; the Hillman Avenger (or Chrysler, or whatever, good old Rootes). Some would argue the Avenger is actually the more entertaining and accomplished car to pilot and values aren't so astronomical. Like the practicality and comfort of the Austin Maxi but can't find a nice one for good money? A late model Citroen CX could well be the answer, plus the suspension is just that bit better and has parts support. The CX still looks like it's landed from outer space too. VW Golfs are very popular, but then so was the Talbot Horizon (and Chrysler... Rootes again) and for some reason the Horizon just hasn't gone silly on the price in the same way. Perhaps you like having a slow journey to spend cramped in a little tin box. You'll be after a VW Camper for that but they are very, very expensive and often chock full of terrible repair work you can't see until it's too late. Choose a Commer PB instead and the rust and problems will generally be proudly on display, they're a bit quicker too and generally have more space inside. You get the idea, you don't necessarily have to pick the thing you really want to get what you really like in a vehicle.

For the most part, there isn't a car over 30 years old now that's going to be worth any less than it is at the current point in time. As they become rarer, or more recognised, or both, values do tend to increase. In part this increase in price is down to inflation, in part it's because people are always looking for the next affordable classic and while there's always going to be that car we WANT to own, generally a compromise has to be accepted if funds don't permit. Sometimes you find something you really enjoy as a result, and sometimes it's good not to meet your heroes.

So, do I practice what I preach? I try to.

1994 Rover 414SLi - was looking for a two door sports car without a sunroof, like a Daihatsu Copen. Didn't so much step sideways as leave the country on this one.
23 years old
Bought for just under £300 on the road in July 2015 and used daily since. Full mechanical overhaul including head gasket change and wearing 113,000 miles it's never going to be worth megabucks but I daresay my £700 or so investment in maintenance and repair has turned my £300 car into a £500 one. Oops.

1980 Austin Morris Princess - was actually looking for this. Hmm... no sideways stepping at all. I was open to a Maxi, Ambassador or Allegro if one came along though.
37 years old
Bought for £450 on the road in 2012, used daily for about 18 months. Life and rust conspired against me for a couple of years and it is now modified to my taste which makes valuing it harder. However, if it were the same car I bought in 2012 before I did all the work it needed, it would now set me back £800. Sentimentality means the car is irreplacable to me but I suspect it's actual worth once it has a fresh MoT and paint is going to be nearer the £1200 mark. Prices are going up on Princesses, some sold last year for £4-5000, which isn't bad for a car you couldn't give away in the 90s.

1975 Renault 6TL - Was considering a Triumph Mayflower or an Austin A40 Farina. Sideways step achieved.
42 years old
Bought for £80, not on the road. In fact, it had been off the road for 20 years, didn't run and has been a real labour of love to put right. Now, when 6s do pop up for sale, they command a higher price than you might expect. Mine looks terrible (it has done 132,000 miles and had a bodyshell swap in its past) but is mechanically pretty well sorted, just being held up with a difficult-to-source, model specific radiator at present. Parts are cheap and most are plentiful because it's a platform shared with the Renault 4 so things like brakes and other consumables are fairly easy to acquire, important when trying to run a classic regularly. There's no point me repainting it as the cost of a respray would exceed the value of the car. I expect it will be worth around £1000 with an MoT, possibly more because it's far more solid than looks might suggest.

It's all about what you want from a classic. For me it's the enjoyment of tinkering with an old car, sometimes the hunt for parts and unusual accessories is fun and just the responses from friends and strangers alike. If you're after an affordable traditional classic, you're going to struggle. MG A and Ford Escorts and Austin Minis are all so popular now that the demand outstrips supply and pushes the prices up accordingly.