Series 3 Landie FFR

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RangerNeil
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Series 3 Landie FFR

#1 Post by RangerNeil » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:46 pm

The other vehicle in the fleet beside the UAZ is a 1973 Series 4 landrover - ex-military 109" DDR with all the joys of a 24v high amp electrical system....
However - the current issue is nothing to do with that. Last October i was headed down to Hampshire to collect a Sankey trailer for a friend and as I approached J9 of the M3 with everything running sweetly I felt the dreaded clunking wihch told of a puncture. Pulled over and swapped the wheel over then went to pull away. Engine started fine but suddenly I had no power. I crawled up the J9 slip road and then took 4 attempts to get through the lights, picking up a friendly police escort in the process :D . Sortly thereafter it died altogether and I had to get a ride home with the RAC - two rides actually as their hitch would not fit the Sankey tow ring so we had the landie on one truck and the Sankey on the other.
Once home I ran a compression check and the source of the problem was immediate:
Cyl #1 - 70 psi
Cyl #2 - 70 psi
Cyl #3 - 0 psi
Cyl #4 - 0 psi

So off came the head and this is what I found:

Image

Impressive for the lack of material between the cylinders!! And a closer inspection of the cylinder head revals an almighty gouge between the valve chambers of #3 and #4 cylinder effectively making the head scrap. I have absolutely no idea why this should have happened.....

Image

The other noticeable damage was to the piston crowns - all showed signs of erosion where the gasket had failed:

Image

Having located a replacment head it went in the local reconditioning firm to have new valves fitted and be cleaned up as it was extremely rusty. Whilst this was done the pistons were removed and new pistons sourced together with new big end bearings. And now the fun begins. Due to a lack of funds and work space the engine was left in situ in the engine bay but I need to find a way to remove the carbon ridge at the top of the bore. If I leave it there the odds are the new rings will hit it and break first time I run the engine. The bored have been glaze busted with a hone which, of course , had had little effect on the top ridge. I have tried a ridge reamer - but the one I have:

Image

sits on top of the block and is a pig to use as it's almost impossible to keep it square in the bore whilst turning the central shaft. I think I may have to resort to getting hold of a die grinder and trying to use that to tlose the ridge - unless anyone has a better idea????
Meantime the new head has been painted, together with the rocker cover, ready for refitting and the Army oil type stencil applied:

Image

So once this business with the ridge is sorted it should be a simple and straightforwards job of reassembly!! :D :D
As with the UAZ - the biggest limiter is the weather as my garage is the front garden!!
Neil.
Cars
1974 Saab Type 95
1963 Saab Sport

Green Machines
19xx Czech built UAZ 469
1957 AEC Militant Mk 1 6x6 Ten tonner
1974 Landrover 109" FFR Series 3

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JPB
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:24 pm

Re: Series 3 Landie FFR

#2 Post by JPB » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:21 pm

I'd have to advise that ideally, you progress other than by removing the ridges from these bores. Fact is, if the ridge is severe enough to pick the rings up to the extent that they'd be in danger of shattering, then the ovality present beneath the ridge - and probably at the bottom of each bore too - would tend to be enough to mean that the only lasting and reliable solutions are either to hone the bores - and accept that doing so will tend to lead to an engine that will be likely to have a greater oil habit than it should and also to breath quite badly - or bite the bullet, give up food for a week and have the block out for a rebore to the next oversize for which piston & ring sets are available from one of the good quality makers. The second suggestion there will give you as new ring to bore fit and is obviously the ideal way forward, not that expensive either.
Or what about a set of "ridge dodger" rings? I hope that thæ things have been discontinued and their inventor given a good slap along the lugs by the president of his professional body, but they can work reasonably for a while, just don't expect too much from any method that doesn't involve a rebore. Sorry to be harsh, but even if you did find a way to put off the inevitable you'd only have to rebore it after a further few years in any case whereas, given the appropriate action now, the engine would be good as new and fit for as many more miles to come as a factory fresh engine.
John, If it's old & badly broken, chances are I've owned it. :|

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TerryG
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Location: East Midlands

Re: Series 3 Landie FFR

#3 Post by TerryG » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:49 pm

Your pic looks like the mating surface on the block is forked as well as the head. has it cleaned up ok or is it as pitted as it appears? As old land rover engines are fairly cheap, if money is tight I'd pick up a running used unit and swap it out.
You are a bit far away to borrow my engine crane to pull the block out but hiring one from HSS isn't very expensive and if you have the spare ready to fit, you would only need it for a day.
Understeer: when you hit the wall with the front of the car.
Oversteer: when you hit the wall with the back of the car.
Horsepower: how fast you hit the wall.
Torque: how far you take the wall with you.

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RangerNeil
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Re: Series 3 Landie FFR

#4 Post by RangerNeil » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:01 am

Not harsh at all but absolutely honest. A few years life out of this one would be enough time to get a few bills cleared and back on the feet financially. As well as a hole cleared in the garage big enough to work on. Right now funds are limited by being midway through resurrecting the UAZ as is space - the only thing I have in excess is time - but that is constrained by weather as it is parked in the front garden.
So if I can get the ridges either gone or at least blended in it will suffice.
I agree - the best possible solution is to get the engine block out and completely strip it then get it repored and the main and camshaft bearings checked. And if I can get 2 or 3 years or so out of this one bearingin mind it doesn't do more that 200- 300 miles a year I will be happy. AFAIK the old stepped top rings are no longer available so not an option :D

Top of the block has cleaned up - mainly that is carbon build up in the photos. If I can find a 5 bearing lump then that is my longterm plan - mine is a 3 bearing.
Neil.
Cars
1974 Saab Type 95
1963 Saab Sport

Green Machines
19xx Czech built UAZ 469
1957 AEC Militant Mk 1 6x6 Ten tonner
1974 Landrover 109" FFR Series 3

kstrutt1
Posts: 516
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:55 pm
Location: essex

Re: Series 3 Landie FFR

#5 Post by kstrutt1 » Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:32 pm

You might try a sanding drum, the bores will need honing to bed the new rings in as well I was in much the same position with mine which got to getting through a gallon of oil every 500 miles, I managed to pick up a runnning 3 brg engine with unleaded head for £70, even that uses a bit of oil but not too much, as with you I would like a 5 brg 2.25 or 2.5, even thought about building the petrol rods with new pistons into a 5 brg diesel bottom end which seem more plentiful.

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RangerNeil
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Re: Series 3 Landie FFR

#6 Post by RangerNeil » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:00 am

Well - finally - the pistons are back in. In the end I used a Dremel type tool first with a rotary rasp and then with a grind stone to cut away the lip and blend it it. Followed this with another session od bore honing till it looked OK. Swapped the new pistons onto the con rods and fitted as per the book with the oil hoile in the con rod nearest to the cam shaft. Pistons #1, #2 and #4 went in easily, #3 was a nightmare and locked the crank solid as soon as the nuts were nipped up - let alone torqued. No idea why so took it out again and had a look but could see nothin wrong so refitted it. This time it went in easily and the crank rotated so this one got torqued down to 25 il/ft too as per the manual.
Whipped the oil filter canister off to replare the filter element iside - it was disgusting so that has been cleaned inside and out and given a coat of paint ready to refit. Two old head bolts have had the heads cut off to act as guides to refit the head - just need to get the lifting eyes refitted so that the head can be man handled back into place. Then its a case of refitting all the ancilliary components, making sure all is bolted/torqued down and I can try to restart her.
Serioulsy thinking of swapping the Weber carb back to the original Zenith model too.

This of course leaves the reason as to WHY the head gasket failed so badly unresolved. It could just be a dodgy gasket, it could be that I erred in converting lb/ft to N/M for the torque wrench I was using - but i am wondering if it could - at least partly - be an ignition timing issue too??? The dizzy was swapped for the correct shuleded typ recently and the iming set by eye as there is no way my timing strobe can be connected to the shielded ignitin leads,
Neil.
Cars
1974 Saab Type 95
1963 Saab Sport

Green Machines
19xx Czech built UAZ 469
1957 AEC Militant Mk 1 6x6 Ten tonner
1974 Landrover 109" FFR Series 3

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TerryG
Posts: 6750
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:54 pm
Location: East Midlands

Re: Series 3 Landie FFR

#7 Post by TerryG » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:52 am

How old was the gasket that blew? They don't last forever so it's possible it was just it's time to fail.
Pinking leads to increased combustion chamber pressure so it certainly won't have helped the issue if the gasket was already weeping.
I have seen several rover v8 gaskets like that where people have over tightened the 3rd row of bolts.
Understeer: when you hit the wall with the front of the car.
Oversteer: when you hit the wall with the back of the car.
Horsepower: how fast you hit the wall.
Torque: how far you take the wall with you.

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Luxobarge
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Location: Horne, Surreyshire

Re: Series 3 Landie FFR

#8 Post by Luxobarge » Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:32 pm

RangerNeil wrote: In the end I used a Dremel type tool first with a rotary rasp and then with a grind stone to cut away the lip and blend it it. Followed this with another session od bore honing till it looked OK.
Didn't like to say earlier 'cos it sounds like a bodge, but I've done that in the past and would do it again if need be. The trick is to take time and be super careful, with lots of light to see what you're doing, and take all possible steps (including leaving a vacuum cleaner nozzle running near the work) to stop grit getting where it shouldn't. Never had any problems with the ones I've done in the past, and a lot better than those special rings IMHO.

Well done!

Cheers :D
Some people are like Slinkies - they serve no useful purpose, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them downstairs.

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RangerNeil
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Re: Series 3 Landie FFR

#9 Post by RangerNeil » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:36 pm

TerryG wrote:How old was the gasket that blew? They don't last forever so it's possible it was just it's time to fail.
Pinking leads to increased combustion chamber pressure so it certainly won't have helped the issue if the gasket was already weeping.
I have seen several rover v8 gaskets like that where people have over tightened the 3rd row of bolts.
Less than 6 months with maybe 130 miles covered. When I did that one I only had a N/M torque wrench and may have got the math wrong in converting lb/ft to N/M This time I used a lb/ft torque wrench - and triple checked by using a bending scale one.
Neil.
Cars
1974 Saab Type 95
1963 Saab Sport

Green Machines
19xx Czech built UAZ 469
1957 AEC Militant Mk 1 6x6 Ten tonner
1974 Landrover 109" FFR Series 3

User avatar
TerryG
Posts: 6750
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:54 pm
Location: East Midlands

Re: Series 3 Landie FFR

#10 Post by TerryG » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:56 pm

It could be worse. Several years ago some idiot (me) with stretch bolts misread 90 degrees as 90lb/ft. guess how many seconds that head gasket lasted.
Understeer: when you hit the wall with the front of the car.
Oversteer: when you hit the wall with the back of the car.
Horsepower: how fast you hit the wall.
Torque: how far you take the wall with you.

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