Vulgalour's Vehicles - 10/03 Ignition Switch Woe

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JPB
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Re: Vulgalour's Vehicles - 18/02 Renault

#911 Post by JPB » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:26 pm

The leads quite often end up fitted in the wrong order on the FWD Renaults whose Sierra / Cléon series engines sit effectively amidships as the 6's does, rather than the more conventional forward facing location as found in VW Passats and the Toyota Tercel range along with some of Renault's own lovely big squishy 1970s motors :drool: . This fitting-related peccadillo often comes as a result of having worked on the 12 and then on a 5 in the same day..
:scared:
John, Operating knackered old sheds as daily transport since 1981. :|

vulgalour
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Re: Vulgalour's Vehicles - 18/02 Renault

#912 Post by vulgalour » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:11 am

I didn't have long to look at this today, just long enough to confirm it isn't the leads. I've checked them many times according to the manual and they are as they should be.

So, I need to check the other timing stuff and that needs a greater investment of time than ten minutes. Just hope I get some free time when it's daylight and not raining as I'm stuck outside trying to work this one out.

vulgalour
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Re: Vulgalour's Vehicles - 18/02 Renault

#913 Post by vulgalour » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:49 pm

An American once told me "to assume is to make an ass out of you and me". Not sure what I was doing at the time to warrant the statement, but they're words to live by nonetheless. It is with this in mind that I approached the engine in the Renault today. It's entirely likely that by assuming I've done things properly I have, in actual fact, done them wrong. So, established conventions and sound principles out the window, let's do everything by the workshop manual (not a Haynes one) as if I've never, ever seen an engine ever before. I'm going to be as in depth as I can be so if you see anything really wrong that I've done then you can point it out to me as we go along.

First of all, fight with the gear lever extension and lose one nut. Then fight with the rocker cover and the spark plug for cylinder 1 at the front of the engine until you can see what you're doing, like so.
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The manual, it says:
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I will state that at this point I set it to TDC according to the sound principle of putting something in plug hole #1 and slowly turning the engine until the something reaches the top of its travel but before it crushes said something. That gave me this, which is wrong.
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Instead, I did it by the book and a fraction of further movement of this.
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Got us here. Which is correct, nes pas?
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Good. Then the weather started kicking off, typically, blowing the manual and tools all over the shop and occasionally raining in my ear. So this was going to be fun. Now, the next thing to check was the distributor which was suspected to be installed incorrectly. On removal of the distributor via the awkward clamp nut that I haven't got a C shaped spanner (that's the shank of it, not the head) to make life easier with, we can see the drive cog down in the hole.
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The manual says:
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So that's wrong. I pulled out the cog and replaced it about three thousand times until it was as the book described above, like so.
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Then the weather kicked off and blew the manual into my rapidly cooling coffee nearly throwing it off the roof and, well, I got a case of all the nopes. You'll notice as well that I need to remove the drive cog again because I've actually put it in the wrong way around with the 'fat side' towards the bulkhead rather than towards the headlights. Luckily Mike spotted that in the photographs. To finish off I hastily put the tools away, dropped the distributor and clamp back in their respective locations and shut the car up for the day.
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It's not a lot of progress because I only had about 90 minutes spare, I was being methodical and the weather was being a big old crybaby at me. Next time I'll try and get the distributor drive cog, distributor, valve clearances, points clearance, distributor cap, spark plug and spark leads all back on. I might even have enough time to fight the rocker cover back on and find the nut that ran away.

vulgalour
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Re: Vulgalour's Vehicles - 21/02 Renault

#914 Post by vulgalour » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:08 pm

Update time! Ready for some frustration? I bet you are.

First job is to rotate the flywheel a full revolution to sort the timing out. It's just about impossible to photograph the valves, but this was the before shot (I think).
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Check the distributor drive cog and find it's back to the same place it was. So that needs to come out and be turned around so the fat side is on the side it should be.
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Made sure my timing mark was where it should be, like so.
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Now, the valves are in a different position to previously, but again quite difficult to photograph.
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Turned the distributor drive cog around so it's aligned properly. This was actually much easier than my first attempt so I guess I'm getting the knack of that.
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I was asked which distributor is fitted, so here's the details for that.
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Put the distributor back in and the rotor arm now points in exactly the opposite direction to what it did before giving the flywheel one full revolution. That's to be as expected, from what I understand people telling me.
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I also put enough pipework in and an improvised bung for the vacuum/fuel thing under the carburettor. This now appears to be working properly as the sellotape cap was deformed inward on the pipe so must be creating at least some vacuum.
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Distributor cap and leads refitted in the correct order, connected up to the coil, a little petrol down the carb, jump leads to the Rover because I'd forgotten to fully charge the Renault's battery and we tried again.
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This is where the frustration is because I'm sure you'll want to hear I got it running allbeit badly and much rejoicing was had. What happened instead were a few weak pops in the exhaust rather than backfiring out the carburettor but not enough to get the car to actually run. A little more accelerant was applied to the carb and again we almost got it to fire but there is another problem somewhere. It does appear the timing is as it should be now, so that's something. Even with a remote fuel source we're getting fuel up to the carb but it's not getting through it, I'm guessing there's a blockage in there somewhere. There was some black gunge around some of these holes that were previously clean.
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I plonked the air box back on because I was fed up of moving it every time I got in the car and decided to do this update to help me troubleshoot the potential problem rather than poking blindly at something I don't understand the cause of.
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My suspicion is that there's still a blockage in the carburettor somewhere and the spark may be too weak to make use of what fuel is getting through or put directly into the carb. I will agree that it must now be something very simple to find, it's just going to take me a while to figure it out because of my lack of experience with this sort of fault. Please be patient with me.

On a happier note, the new dash clock arrived.
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JPB
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Re: Vulgalour's Vehicles - 22/02 Renault

#915 Post by JPB » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:18 pm

You may find this link useful regarding engine direction: http://www.renault4.co.uk/forum/threads ... joke.8211/

I'm not certain that 1 and 4 are the wrong way round, seeing as the leads aren't visible at the ends of the head but, given the brilliant French idea of reversing the direction of rotation when simply fitting the CW&P the other way round would have meant that clockwise engines could be used in both trans forward of and behind engine Renaults, it's entirely possible that the (ignition) timing is 180 degrees away, which would give the symptoms you found..
John, Operating knackered old sheds as daily transport since 1981. :|

rich.
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Re: Vulgalour's Vehicles - 22/02 Renault

#916 Post by rich. » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:23 pm

JPB wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:18 pm
You may find this link useful regarding engine direction: http://www.renault4.co.uk/forum/threads ... joke.8211/

I'm not certain that 1 and 4 are the wrong way round, seeing as the leads aren't visible at the ends of the head but, given the brilliant French idea of reversing the direction of rotation when simply fitting the CW&P the other way round would have meant that clockwise engines could be used in both trans forward of and behind engine Renaults, it's entirely possible that the (ignition) timing is 180 degrees away, which would give the symptoms you found..
funny lot the french.. :scared:

3xpendable
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Re: Vulgalour's Vehicles - 18/02 Renault

#917 Post by 3xpendable » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:00 pm

vulgalour wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:49 pm
An American once told me "to assume is to make an ass out of you and me".
Unfortunately, most people I've met who have used that line on me are complete arseholes!! :lol:

Glad you got at least the timing issues sorted, as I was reading your thread, having the timing possibly 180 degrees out was my first thought. Keep at it, if nothing else you are learning lots. Sadly my learning at the moment is mainly construction based! Though I have been working on my Father In Law's 34 Vicky Hot Rod so I may post some updates on that.
Currently classic-less.

GHT
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Re: Vulgalour's Vehicles - 18/02 Renault

#918 Post by GHT » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:46 pm

vulgalour wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:49 pm
An American once told me "to assume is to make an ass out of you and me". Not sure what I was doing at the time to warrant the statement, but they're words to live by nonetheless.
Good words indeed, there's many a saying that has derived from the original which was: "Expectation is the root of all heartache." The quote is attributed to William Shakespeare, but heartache is not a word that The Bard would recognise. What he actually said was: "Oft expectation fails, and most oft there where most it promises." It comes from the play: All's Well That Ends Well, act II, scene 1. So now you know.

vulgalour
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Re: Vulgalour's Vehicles - 22/02 Renault

#919 Post by vulgalour » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:57 pm

I am as happy today as the Renault made me unhappy yesterday.  That's very happy indeed.  Today was an opportunity to do some good with the Princess since I'd booked a chap to come out and sort my suspension out and see what else I could do on the car to make things a bit more finished and complete.  Inside the car, the rear seats have a little bit of vinyl trim that goes on the body beside the seat base, you can't see it when it's fitted but sometimes see painted bodyshell when it isn't.
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At the front, I finally got the A pillar kickplates in and the fresh air vent pipes reinstalled.  I'm still missing two strips of black carpet for the inner sills, not vital at the moment and easily resolved with just some black stuff which I'll do eventually.
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All of the glass got a clean inside and out and everything got vacuumed and dusted inside the car which I haven't done for months.  It does need a full deep clean, for now it's just nice and tidy.  I got the lower section of the dashboard fitted bar one or two screws and managed to get the bracket for the large ashtray that lives under the switchbank to fit properly so that's also ready to go in now.  There's no wiring behind this piece so it made sense to fit it since it's quite a large item to have flopping around the place.
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I'm really happy with how much tidier the interior is looking now, almost like a real car.  On the outside, Mike was busy fitting my new number plates.  I'm really pleased with how the rear one looks, it makes so much sense of what the various lights are doing and looks far better than it did in my head.  There's some more work to do on the paint and the exhaust tailpipe needs tweaking a little, other than that I'm really happy with the back end of the car now, even the foglights I wasn't certain of before.
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Mike also fitted the front number plate once we figured out how to use the original Princess brackets that needed a slight trim.  This I'm also delighted with, it's really tidy and clean and the numberplate is both visible, discreet and sits now lower than the sump.  Absolutely perfect.
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You may have noticed the car is sitting a little higher and level.  That's because the suspension is now pumped up.  I had the opportunity to drive around the yard to resettle the suspension part way through the job and it but the biggest, stupidest grin on my face that I just couldn't get rid of.  I'd forgotten just how quick the Princess could be but certainly hadn't forgotten how fun it is.  The brakes are better than I remember too.
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This does mean I can update my list!
MoT list update:
> connect fog lights
> connect number plate lights
> stick number plates on - DONE
> make hazard switch work
> make the indicator lights work - DONE
> pump up the suspension - DONE
> fit the new tyres
> fit a new washer jet pump
> tune the carb.
> find the loose steering component

vulgalour
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Re: Vulgalour's Vehicles - 24/02 Princess

#920 Post by vulgalour » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:51 pm

Princess progress again, folks. First thing to illustrate is how much lower than the number plate the sump is. I'm really happy with how much lower the car looks on the front than it really is and the number plate location is a big part of that visual trickery. Rust is just some surface where the paint was thin from an unfinished job and outdoor storage, I'll be rectifying that soon.
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Found the central ashtray in the garage today and got that back in place.
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Tried out the various bits and bobs to see what would work. For one brief, brilliant moment, everything did! Apart from the horn and two of the dash binnacle illumination. The main beam telltale is almost invisible, the lens is a really dark blue.
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I wanted to see what the lights looked like properly at night and was impressed at just how huge they look on the back end. I should be pretty hard to miss. They're like rocket boosters, which pleases me.
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Apart from the aim being off, the new halogens up front are pretty good too with a noticeable difference between dip and main beam.
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I replaced the side repeater that wasn't working, the one I removed just sort of fell apart so it's no wonder it wasn't working. The new one went in really easily, one of the quicker jobs on the car.
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Dug out the mk1 screen wash bottle from the spares stash and was going to use the matching pump I had but the connectors were wrong, so I used a brand new pump Mike gave me last year which is a proper match. The pump needs fastening down but I now have working washer jets again. That's an MoT job off the list!
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Removed the mechanical fuel pump to reseal it and found all but about 5mm of the bottom of the spacer block was actually sealing really well. The spacer block isn't deformed or cracked and bonded so well to the pump itself you can't remove it without more force than I was willing to put in since it's working fine that side. I tried fitting a thick paper gasket to stem the oil leak from this that has plagued me since fitting the mechanical pump, the only failure of this alteration really since it's perfectly fine as a pump at all speeds. Time will tell on this one.
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Splashed some purple on the front wing to try out the full length two-tone. I do like it, the car looks really long in profile and it takes a lot of that visual weight out of the nose end of the car. For now, this is what I'll go with. Finding the best line over the arch flare was tricky.
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Finally, I swapped the old boot lid on in favour of the green one that didn't fit so well. Stripping the paint was proving really difficult because it's ludicrously thick and barely anything touches it apart from the most recent respray I did some time ago. I decided to try out the alignment and had it fairly close I thought so went to just shut the boot to, but not on the latch, when it shut on the latch. Now it won't open. I've managed to shut tools, the manual and spares in the boot too. The lock works on the key but won't release so I'm not really sure how I'm going to fix this problem without damaging the boot lid. I've tried various prying, leaning, hitting, wiggling and easing of the boot lid to no avail. I'm not sure I'm small enough to fit through the cross-brace holes behind the back seat to get into the boot to release it from inside, it's not a job I'm looking forward to.
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I believe I've found the cause of the electrical gremlin too. After having everything working, the horn stopped working properly, then the indicators gave up, then the rear heated screen switch wouldn't illuminate. Fuses are fine, what wiring I can see without dismantling the dashboard is also okay. The Princess did this when I bought it five years ago, in almost exactly the same way (I don't recall it blowing fuse #5 back then), and it was down to dirty switches and connections in the dashboard panel itself so I'll take the dashboard out and give everything a clean and check over. Hopefully that's all it really is.

MoT list update:
> connect fog lights
> connect number plate lights
> stick number plates on - DONE
> make hazard switch work
> make the indicator lights work - DONE
> pump up the suspension - DONE
> fit the new tyres
> fit a new washer jet pump - DONE
> tune the carb.
> find the loose steering component

P.S. the suspension stayed up! I was quite nervous going into the unit given this car's habit of consuming displacers, so that was a big relief.Princess progress again, folks. First thing to illustrate is how much lower than the number plate the sump is. I'm really happy with how much lower the car looks on the front than it really is and the number plate location is a big part of that visual trickery. Rust is just some surface where the paint was thin from an unfinished job and outdoor storage, I'll be rectifying that soon.

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